Saskia Moore, winner of AMA - Diners Club CSA Competition 'Every Body's GORGEOUS', with Graham, Mabury, Radio 6PR

MOORE: Thank you very much.

MABURY: Great to have you with us. Bet you're excited.

MOORE: Yes I am. I'm still sort of quite amazed by it all really. I feel overwhelmed.

MABURY: You should be. I mean, you should be over the moon, it's a fantastic win and it required some real creativity. Tell us about what you came up with, what tape did you do?

MOORE: I came up with a sort of final piece that I sent in, my idea was sort of - came across through the idea of labelling people and…

MABURY: Right.

MOORE: What I did was, I ended up with a 30 second community service announcement whereby I had a gorgeous friend of mine, Madeleine, and she was hanging out the washing and Madeleine is - she's not sort of, yeah, not really ideal - body image for what the media wants today.

MABURY: Not the magazine…

MOORE: No, no, no.

MABURY: …image?

MOORE: She's not your sort of standard magazine image but she's an absolutely gorgeous person.

MABURY: Yeah.

MOORE: And so I took her and I got her just to hang out some washing and what I did was, I got, just some washing tag labels…

MABURY: Oh yeah.

MOORE: …and printed them.

MABURY: Yeah.

MOORE: And I had her measurements on the top of one of them, with her exact measurements of bust, waist and…

MABURY: Hips?

MOORE: …hips, yeah. And then at the bottom I had - so that was her measurements and it had, heart, extra, extra large.

MABURY: Oh great.

MOORE: And so - because I just wanted to get across the idea that really labelling people and sort of judging people purely by what they look like is really, you know, what's not - it doesn't sort of represent what's in side of them.

MABURY: Okay.

MOORE: Then I also had a bottom label that was attached to her pants and it had some care instructions on it. And it had things like, will not shrink to fit, designed never to fade and that sort of thing. Down the bottom, yeah.

MABURY: That's very clever.

MOORE: Thank you.

MABURY: Yeah, well done. And now, first of all, before we get in to the real serious stuff that I want to talk to you about.

MOORE: Mm.

MABURY: Plans for the prize money?

MOORE: Hopefully further study.

MABURY: Good idea.

MOORE: I've been accepted into Masters at the College of Fine Arts in New South Wales, and I, unfortunately sort of can't HECS post graduate studies so I think it might…

MABURY: Just would be a very good idea. Now, ask - let me ask you, your own journey with anorexia?

MOORE: Yeah.

MABURY: How long did it last? How severe was it?

MOORE: Seven years.

MABURY: Wow.

MOORE: Yeah, I had it at the very beginning of my teenage years, sort of twelve, thirteen, and how to add up - 21 - I had to think about that. I'm 21 now and can honestly say that at 21 I am now over it.

MABURY: Well, I have a young person close to me who had a similar journey and that's why I'm particularly revved up about these web sites. But let me ask you, do you understand the cause of it now? What causes anorexia or bulimia?

MOORE: I think it's sort of - it can vary so widely in terms of…

MABURY: Right. There is no one cause?

MOORE: There is no real one cause that any one can pin point, like there's so many different triggers.

MABURY: That's the word they talk about isn't it, triggers?

MOORE: Yeah, yep, definitely. And it can almost sort of come from anywhere, like it can come from childhood experiences, it can come from media imagery. It can from you know, a variety of sources and it's just that one little trigger that can sort of hook you in and you know, you can almost become lost in it.

MABURY: Are you able to say what your trigger was?

MOORE: I guess it was - it's quite hard to pin point what my trigger was. I don't know, I've had years of therapy on it and they've never sort of been able to work out what exactly it was. I suppose it was just me being a twelve, thirteen year old girl and sort of going through puberty, which is the time when most sort of, girls developing, it's quite a dangerous time really because you're sort of growing out of proportion, nothing sort of fits right and it's sort of between that stage of girl and woman.

MABURY: Yes.

MOORE: And so, really for me, I was sort of just - I think I was just most uncomfortable with it all and I'm sort of almost a perfectionist. Well not so much a perfectionist, I sort of have high ideals and high aspirations as to what I want to do and I suppose that sort of - the idea of, 'oh God, I'm not quite perfect therefore I'll try and fix my body as well'…

MABURY: Yes, 'I'm fixing everything else, let me deal with this while I'm at it'?

MOORE: Yeah, exactly.

MABURY: Was there any element of control in it for you? Obviously not, it was more an expectations thing?

MOORE: It was an expectations thing but it was also a matter of control because with anorexia or bulimia, because I actually had both. I had anorexia first and then I ended up coming off that and then going in to bulimia, so I've had the works.

MABURY: Yeah, so, just for fun.

MOORE: Why, not really, no. But I, as I say, I don't know what the trigger was and…

MABURY: No, that's fine. But it's in - but you've learnt - I mean, have you learnt - did - was part of the recovery process learning to identify your triggers?

MOORE: Ah.

MABURY: Not really obviously?

MOORE: I suppose - not really, because I still don't really know what it was that actually sort of triggered it off.

MABURY: So how did you come back? What was it that led to you winning?

MOORE: In terms of the award?

MABURY: No, no, no, sorry, bad - my fault - bad question. How did you overcome the..

MOORE: How did I overcome it?

MABURY: Yeah, what was the path back for you? How did you beat it?

MOORE: How did I beat it? Long - long, long, sort of journey because I had it for about seven years or so. I sort of came off the anorexic track sort of after year 12 because I was maintaining such a low body weight but I was sort of, just, just hanging in there and I wasn't too overly underweight that they could again throw me in to hospital. But that was sort of wavering as such, and then I sort of flirted with the idea of bulimia and then that got substantially worse to the point where I ended up in sort of, hospital therapy for that. But, I had a lot of therapy through hospital and a lot of family support, a lot of friend support, and it sort of helped me through it. But my final hurdle was that I could never sort of, give myself permission if you like, it sounds stupid but I could never give myself permission to say, 'look, I'm over this, I've got to accept myself'.

MABURY: Yes, I''m over this and how I am is how I am'?

MOORE: It's how I am, deal with it. And I couldn't do that, I couldn't let go because anorexia - or any form of eating disorder really becomes so much a part of you that it almost forms a part of your identity, like, I'm known as that skinny girl or you know, because I've had it for so long it sort of almost - I could label myself as being that.

MABURY: Yeah, I do, I know exactly what you mean. So that was, as much as anything. First of all it was kind of an expectation thing, then it was an identity thing?

MOORE: Yep.

MABURY: Let me get your reaction to the fact that across the Net now, and across - largely springing out of America, there are all these web sites from what's called the anorexic or the anorexic and bulimics sisterhood almost encouraging one another to hang in there and really journey with this thing. How do you respond to that?

MOORE: To be honest, I haven't looked at the web sites.

MABURY: I'm glad to hear it.

MOORE: Yeah.

MABURY: It might not be a good thing for you to do?

MOORE: No. I mean, I'm just quite distressed that something like that - I mean, it's - it's fine - I accept that things are on the Internet and you know, it's a free society, you can put what you like up there, but when it's harmful and when it's dangerous and when it can do such damage to people. It's just, I don't understand how it can sort of be legitimised as something worthwhile on the Internet for people to actually go to because it's such…anorexia and bulimia, like eating disorders in general are such an insidious thing that, as I said, if you just get this one trigger it's so hard to fix.

MABURY: You can be virtually dieing, I mean literally dieing and still think, I'm fat?

MOORE: Yep, you can.

MABURY: So what you saw in the mirror was not what you were looking at?

MOORE: No, definitely not. You have this sort of warped sense of everything really, sort of become an alien to everything because you think you're fat and you think that everyone else is thinking that you're fat but really no one notices and no one really cares in a way because it's so self absorbing.

MABURY: Look, I wonder - one of the web sites says, for many, anorexia is positive and healthy lifestyle choice that leads to greater self esteem.

MOORE: Mm, I'd argue that.

MABURY: I would think so. I would think so. I mean, I find it - it it's kind of - they call their illness 'Anna' apparently, and many of them say, 'Anna is my best friend'.

MOORE: Yep.

MABURY: Do you understand that?

MOORE: Yeah, I can understand in terms of being a friend because for me I guess, it sounds odd, but it was almost like a comfort because you could have this immense control over yourself and it - it sort of does become a friend because it just becomes you and the eating disorder and nothing else because you end up distancing yourself from family and friends and from, sort of every day life experiences because you become so obsessed with it, that really, all you're left with is you and your eating disorder. I guess that's why people sort of call it their best friend.

MABURY: Well, and these things are about tips to hide it from your parents…that you're not eating. Ways to disguise it. One lady - one of the anonymous people here has written on the web - one of the web sites, 'I love knowing I went the whole day without eating, I love losing weight'. So there's obviously a sense of accomplishment in this?

MOORE: I suppose - yes - I suppose there would be but to say, 'I've managed to achieve this'. But in a way it it's funny, you can almost tip these sort of things on their head really because - I have a chocolate theory that offers - this is Saskia's chocolate theory, the entire universe.

MABURY: Okay.

MOORE: It's the idea that things are so - like especially in the media and in advertising, guilty foods and you know, rich chocolate ice creams or chocolates are so sort of representative of something that's sinful and evil, and sort of really guilty and you shouldn't have it and you know, you're terribly naughty if you have it and that sort of thing. But whereas, really someone who eats those foods and enjoys them and doesn't care is actually a far stronger person than someone who, who eats the food, eats those kinds of foods and says, 'oh no, look, I'd better go on a ten kilometre run, or I shouldn't eat dinner because I've done this'. You're actually not as strong as someone who doesn't care and someone who's happy with themselves and who can sort of run free with whatever.

MABURY: So you're saying in fact, the real strength is in the person who isn't compelled by a particular body image.

MOORE: Yep, yep.

MABURY: Or seeing, looking to that for their - so, in other words, find your strength in the ability to have whatever you like and cope with how like.

MOORE: Yep.

MABURY: Accept yourself.

MOORE: Yep, that's the true strength, I think. That's tipping the whole anorexic thing on its head, that's - that's the way to be strong and that's the way to have positive body image and that's the way to, you know, live your life, that way rather than sort of - instead of saying, 'oh no, everything's bad, I'm guilty, I've done this wrong, I've eaten a chocolate brownie today, look at me. It's yeah, it's the idea of you know…

MABURY: It's the opposite, saying, I can do that if I choose.

MOORE: Yeah, exactly.

MABURY: I can - look, again congratulations Saskia, it's been fabulous to chat to you.

MOORE: Thank you.

MABURY: Pleasure, and I hope that some of your stuff will be put on the web so that these people who, and linked in with these pro-anorexia sites, so that people who are surfing can actually find some hope rather than a path to death.

MOORE: Yep, exactly.

MABURY: Good on you mate.

MOORE: Okay, thank you.

MABURY: Take Care. Saskia Moore, who won the AMA Body Image Video Competition. And can you believe - I mean, the web has no censorship, it has no quality control. It's one of the problems when you look up medical things on the web, you don't know whether you're reading good, sound, research findings or complete drivel out of the head of someone who's off their medication. So, but I can't imagine - yes I can. Isn't it tragic that some young woman are so unwell they're actually describing anorexia as their best friend, linking together on the web to encourage one another towards death. The aim apparently of one of the groups is to stay as close to death as possible without actually dieing, and the tragedy is, some of them don't succeed, they manage to go all the way.

Ends